Last week I recorded a debate among the candidate for Pennsylvania Auditor General. It broadcast on the
PCN network and, as of this writing, is still available
online. I took rough note while watching and am posting them. This is not intended to be a full transcript and I encourage interested voters to listen to the full debate and research the candidates on their own. As always I apologize in advance for any errors or misconceptions.
Introduction by Professor John Gedid, director of Widener University Law & Government Institute in
Harrisburg
Gedid: This is an
important election, especially for fiscal issues.
Brian Lockman, president of PCN, and moderator
Reporters, Brad Bumsted (Pittsburgh Tribune Review), Charlie
Thompson (Harrisburg Patriot News), Eric Boehm (Pa Independent)
Sponsored by PCN, Widener University Law & Government
Institute, and Pennsylvania Correspondents Association
Opening Remarks
BS: Thank PCN and
Widener for including me. Auditor
General is an overseer of state and federal tax dollars. Other candidates will say they are
independent watchdogs. They aren’t and
can’t be. I have no political ties as Libertarian,
can represent taxpayer. Why is it that
as soon as govt gets our tax dollars they act as if it is theirs to spend
indiscriminately. I will ask you as
taxpayer to get involved as I expose waste mismanagement and fraud, and ask you
to contact your representatives and demand change. As a Libertarian it is always an uphill
battle.
ED: Thanks
everyone. State Rep. this is where I went to law school, night
school. Born and raised in Pittsburgh,
fell in love with Tracey in grad school.
Moved to western Pennsylvania, York
Co, where she is a teacher. I went to
night law school. Served as Deputy
Secretary at the state Department of Environmental Protection. In 2006 resigned and ran for pa
legislator. When elected was first rep
to post expenses on line, lowest expenses in state, bought district office
furniture at yard sale. Need watchdog to
make sure depts. are doing what they are
supposed to be doing. Reverse cuts.
JM: Thanks to
all. The informed voter is my friend. I’m an auditor. I’m running for auditor general. My opponents are good folks, mean well. But I’ve been auditing since [missed date -- 1980?], making
sure organizations and government are doing better. Built a business from scratch. I came from the real world and never expected
to be in government. Not even registered
in political party. Then state rep in my
district died and people asked me to run.
I said no. Then realized that
having written a textbook on government spending, I had something to
offer. Elected. Ashamed that Pennsylvania did not have
lobbying regulations. Now you can see
more online.
Brad Bumsted of Pittsburgh Review:
how can you really be state’s fiscal watchdog when auditor general can’t
audit legislature, will you push for a law to allow this? Is general assembly’s self-audit okay?
ED: Yes, auditor
general can’t audit legislature. I put
my expenses online, made sure [missed this] online. A lot of reforms have happened. No more private car leases. We have made cutbacks. We do need to do more. Current audit in legislature not effective
but do believe in separation of powers.
Not sure Auditor General should audit legislature. I have led by example.
JM: Like Gene my expenses
online. Did not take state car. Returned money to the state. Worked to have legislature’s surplus returned
to taxpayers, Voted for it, ED did
not. Yes, separation of powers. Greatest abuses we have seen are in
legislature but that is a tiny portion of money spent by PA. So much more to be seen. Auditor general is the person to discover and
expose waste.
BS: I would be an
independent watchdog. As a libertarian I
would asked Attorney General to allow Auditor general to audit general
assembly. Current general assembly audit
done by people picked by legislative leadership. I will ask the Attorney General to issue
opinion that it is constitutional for auditor general to audit legislature. If the Attorney General won’t I will seek
constitutional amendment. Legislature
slush fund has millions, should go back to general fund.
ED: Suggested surplus
go back to reverse cuts to adult basic.
JM: Gene, come one,
you watched Ed Rendell take money from tobacco settlement .
ED: Under Rendell
there significant growth to education
JM: In the past two
years education spending grown half a billion dollars.
Charlie Thompson, Patriot-News, H’burg: Special performance audits? What areas?
JM: I would not only
include performance audits but introduce system audits. Performance audits, like driving and how many
times got home without running out of gas.
Gas gauge is like system audit to detect when things not done
right. That’s the kind of work a skilled
auditor can do. It is altogether
absent. Time for a change. First audit would be in Dept of Environmental
Protection. Systems there are
insufficient for boom in Marcellus Shale.
Administration acknowledges system doesn’t work and need new one. Auditor General needs to set up systems
audit.
BS: I would make sure
that no only systems audits but also forensic audits, go back and go after the
people who have stolen the taxpayer dollar and misused it and prosecute
them. We had back 6 years ago, there was
in the DCED money was disbursed to increase jobs in PA. No one went back to check and see if anyone
created those jobs. FIAT spent 109K to
send people to Hershey Park for the day.
That gentleman lost his job but we should have prosecuted him. We have to stop this bleeding from Ds and Rs.
ED: Yes I will
conduct performance audits. Auditor
General Casey did performance audit of nursing homes. I would do performance audits of all water
treatment plants to make sure Marcellus done right. Water protection is sacrosanct. Make sure we have enough people to check
wells.
Eric Boehm: Both
opponents have drawn some criticism for running for auditor general while also
running for reelection, and eligible for per diems and salary.
BS: Survey, 86% of
Pennsylvanians think that you should leave office or finish term before running
for another office. If either of opponents
elected we will have to spend money for special elections.
ED: When I made this decision
I talked with constituents and colleagues.
They asked me to run for both. This is a tough race and they don’t want to
lose me. When I started I didn’t have a
statewide name. Now is more likely. If have to resign to run more costly. If both of us resigned to run then would have
to have two special elections. If one of
us win then just have special at primary.
JM: Gene and I agree
on this. We agree on many things. I talked about running so if anyone else was
interested they could step forward. In
that sense 60,000 people made that decision when no one else ran. Look at 2008 presidential election, both
candidates in senate. Hard to come up
with someone who had been in public services who hasn’t run for one office
while in another. As long as transparent
let public made decision.
Brad Bumsted:
Historically audits don’t name any names of people involved. Largely talk about depts. And agencies, would
you name names?
ED: Primary goal is
to find waste fraud and abuse and fix it.
I have a track record of that. At
DEP came in under budget. As far as naming
names, if I found any criminal activity would turn over to DA or AG. My goal is not to scapegoat people but to fix
problem.
JM: I’ve done
forensic audits in private sector that have resulted in public officials being
successfully prosecuted. I like
auditing. I’m good at it. Many Auditor General reports you read them
and say “so what?” There ought to be an
ability to ask questions and get answers.
I co-authored a text on government accounting, ask questions that make a
difference.
BS: I can understand why we might want to hold
names back and turn things over to AG.
As auditor general I would make sure all records open and available to
citizens of PA. Rs and Ds have been
representatives for awhile. Do you think
they’re going to do something that will harm their party? No they won’t. Those items will not be audited. I will audit everyone, no distinctions. You can count on me to be totally
independent. So many issues of waste and
mismanagement.
ED: If I’m auditor
general I don’t care who the governor is.
If I find something wrong and we uncover it I will do something about
it. In 2008 I called for Bill DeWeese to
step down.
JM: Independence of
mind is essential in an auditor general.
Those who paid attention to my efforts on open records issue remember it
was opposed by parties. I got it done.
Ask q of other candidates.
JM asks ED : I have
30 years of auditing experience. Who
will do the auditing if you win.
ED: I will be the auditor general. In City of York, DEP and legislature I have
brought down costs. As for performance
audits I know what those depts are supposed to be doing.
ED asks JM: Previous
3 auditor generals, none of them auditors, what did they do wrong if they
weren’t CPAS. (lists their accomplishments).
JM: Each of them
brought an interested dimension to office.
But I think auditor general should be an auditor. They did good work but it was only a small
part of their time in office. There’s
more to be discovered.
BS to JM: In your
term in state house you voted yourself a 50% pension increase and a midnight
pay increase. You take per diems with no
receipts. Will you supply details on
actual expense incurred.
JM: I’ve got 10 years
of my expense reports up on the web. I
have led by example. I have paid expenses
out of pocket. Refused pay raise and
voted ot repeal it.
Charlie Thompson. Patriot News.
Our last three Audit Generals have run for governor while in
office. Would you commit to not seeking
another office while in this seat.
JM: No difficulty
making that commitment. This is the
culmination for me, as an auditor, been an auditor since [1980?] I’m sure when I’m done no one in either party
will want to elect me for anything again.
BS: No plans to run
for governor. This is hard enough. I did want to mention Rep Maher voted to
repeal pay raise because of public uproar.
Been advocate for taxpayer for many years in community of
Wilkes-Barre. It’s important that people
speak up.
ED: If the people
elect me as Auditor General I’ll be there as long as they want me there. I think this is a critical job. It is a grunt job. If you do the job right it makes it very hard
to get elected for anything else.
Eric Boehm: Two major
scandals – ’05 pay raise, the bonusgate scandal. Both of you have some ties to that.
BS: Out of all 3
candidates, you the taxpayer were severely affected by bonusgate. State workers were paid to throw 3rd
paper candidates off the ballot. Your
choices were removed because of bonusgate.
They’re taking your choices away.
[mentions DePasquale hired someone associated with bonusgate]
ED: People make
mistakes in life. A lot of people have
paid a significant price for bonusgate and rightfully go. After that they have a right to earn a
living. So, yes I have hired the WS
group (Sidella). Part of this if from my
father served 8.5 years of a 10 year prison sentence. Once debt is paid they have the right to make
a living and follow the rules. My dad
now fixes up homes in Pittsburgh. If
you’ve paid your debt and are willing to work hard I’m willing to give
them second chance.
JM: I have never
allowed a legislative employee to work on campaigns. Having the bright line is the easiest way to
prevent someone on state payroll to do campaign work. Gets back to being auditor. If you do things in a systematic fashion
there’s less chance of things going wrong.
For the payraise vote before it was even cast I put in writing that I
refused it for then and forever. When I
took office I took a pay cut. I wasn’t
coming for money but for duty. But the
amount at stake for others, like judges, prevented good people from serving.
Brad Bumsted: Do you believe
pay to play exists on state contracts.
If so what would you do about it?
ED: We don’t
know. You have to do audits of state
contracts to find out. To make those
judgments in advance would impugn people without cause. Our campaign financing system in PA is a
disgrace. That is a mistake. I’m not saying Corbett or Rendell did
anything wrong taking that money but it needs to be fixed.
JM: We really don’t
know and we really should. Over the years I’ve taught how to do forensic
audits. It may not show up on campaign
reports. Could be sacks of money. Have taught at Cambridge U on how to discover
these things.
BS: It also has a big
impact. I Live in Wilkes-Barre, Luzerne
Co. We had cash for kids. We now have judges in prison. [something
about Wilkes-Barre and the Taxpayers Association]. We are sure pay for play is going on. Difficult to expose. If people say “we don’t have any records” the
state will say “they don’t have any records so go away.” I know about corruption. Seen it happen.
Charlie T: Of modern Auditors
general whose work have you admired most and why?
JM: Not thought in those
terms. Not a pantheon hall of
auditors. Each brought life experience
to job. I think it’s time to bring an
auditor to the job. I have a passion for
auditing.
BS: I could not say
that any of them have inspired me. I
have read so much about people finding something out but guy doesn’t go to
prison. I would be hard-hearted and
heavy-handed. We have this massive
pension mess, welfare spending. We are
in deep trouble. We need to stop waste
and mismanagement. Put stops on
spending. Voting libertarian will do
that.
ED: The last three
had guts, integrity and leadership.
Those are the most important characteristics you can bring as auditor
general. Keep asking tough
questions. Never quitting. This comes from a personal passion. My kids are in public schools. If they don’t spend money well it affects me
and people all over the state. Same with
drinking water.
JM: Had 5 seconds to
think about this. Barbara Hafer. She hired me.
Eric Boehm: Audit General
Jack Wagner recommended consolidate state pension plans. Should auditor general make recommendations?
BS: In Wilkes-Barre
part-timers have voted themselves a pension.
Makes me nervous thinking oversight of that would go to state
level. Want to keep it local. State officials should not get a
pension. Ds and Rs have voted themselves
a pension, gave themselves a 50% raise but only 24% to state employees.
ED: Very important
for Auditor General to make recommendations. Auditor General cannot compel any elected body
to do anything but can help guide decisions.
When Jack Wagner found mistakes at PHEAA it helped correct those. PA has more pensions that any other state
combined. Administrative costs alone
burdensome. Some municipalities with 3
or 4 employees have own pension plans.
We have to figure out a comprehensive solution to legacy pension costs.
JM: Interesting when
put globally. But look locally. PA has too many pension plans. Some municipalities have behaved responsibly. Others did not pay as they went and now have
legacy costs. If solution for those who
did poorly is to consolidate with those who did well punishes those who did
well. Look at PSERS. I have audited pension plans I know how to do
it.
Closing Remarks
JM: We have talked a
lot about what auditor general ought to be doing. I have a real passion for auditing and over
30 years’ experience in auditing. If you
were going to a doctor would you pick the one with training or the one with a
nice smile? I want the real doctor
reading my test results.
ED: I’ve talked about
it before and will continue. I was the first
to post expenses online and lowest costs of any rep in the state. Same approach to all departments and agencies
across state. I want to make sure the environment
is protected and job protection programs working for middle class Pennsylvanians,
schools working for kids.
BS:
I have a passion
for being a watchdog for taxpayer.
Voteforbetsy.com, [this link doesn't work, I think she meant
www.betseysummers.com]
lppa.com.
Most important aspect is independence. I’m the
only candidate who can claim real independence.
Most representatives represent parties not people.
We can send a clear message to Harrisburg
[the recording ended].
Posts
